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Conservapedia: Atheists and physical attractiveness

So there are atheist members on this site who are not overweight right? སྤྱན་རས་གཟིགས་ (talk) 03:04, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Atheists are inherently ugly because otherwise they would outbreed theists. 😜 Bongolian (talk) 04:06, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
I wasn't looking for a counter to their arguements. I was just wondering if the statement that the majority of atheists being overweight had any truth to it. སྤྱན་རས་གཟིགས་ (talk) 07:02, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
Obviously not, it's a smear job, and not a very effective one at that. Ɖøn Ĵuan Harass 07:23, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
I don't think 100 lbs on a 5 foot one inch frame is overweight now, right? --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 21:38, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
The overwhelming majority of atheists are from China/Japan/S.Korea/Vietnam. An enormous majority of the them. And no, in general they don't have weight issues. Not remotely at the scale of the United States, most especially Southern States where obesity has become an unrecognized national emergency. Of all the atheists I've known in all the countries I've lived in, I've never noticed a notable difference in weight per religious vs. non-religious. Nor in intelligence nor social skills nor sense of humor nor languages spoken nor anything else except sometimes atheists have a better relationship with critical-thinking skills and empirical knowledge. ShabiDOO 01:08, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
It is good to see that we have dispelled these bastard notions my comrades. སྤྱན་རས་གཟིགས་ (talk) 06:19, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
Heh, in the US at least, I think there's good evidence that it's actually the *reverse* and actually it's the religiously devout (particularly of certain religions like Baptists) that are more likely to be obese! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3358928/ and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28766892 for a start. The postulate of the first link is that many religions, particularly culturally conservative ones, overplay certain sins (such as alcohol or sexual promiscuity) but often barely touch on gluttony as a sin, if at all, Proverbs 23:20 etc. notwithstanding. Some church denominations are also fond of using food as their celebratory good -- often sugary or high-fat items that aren't very good for you. Note that the studies need work and acknowledge this themselves, but the above is way better evidence than the Conservapedia cherry-pick / wishful thinking on this subject. Soundwave106 (talk) 20:45, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
Nope, it has no truth what-so-fucking-ever. I'm an atheist (a pretty outspoken and "militant" one at that), and I'm quite thin. --Goatspeed. Fossil evidence of my evolutionCircularREmail2.gifasoningSee what I'm planning 03:05, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Yes there are, myself included. Additionally, there's been some demonstrated link between religion and obesity.Zipperback (talk) 19:05, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
How ironic, @Zipperback. I have no idea where the whole "atheism and obesity" thing came about. Must have been a figment of  K e n  D o l l 's ever-so-twisted mind. In fact, he seems to be so overly keen to make fun of the weight of PZ Myers and Hemant Mehta so many times, that I'm starting to think he's a closet-fat person who tries to project his physical appearance on atheists and lesbians. I wouldn't be surprised if that's true, given that we already know he's a closet homosexual, which explains his never-ending obsession with the sexual orientation. --Goatspeed. Fossil evidence of my evolutionCircularREmail2.gifasoningSee what I'm planning 01:10, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
It may just be part of a greater trend of statistically unsupportable notions of superiority that seem common to conservative Christians, such as the notion that they have stable God-supported marriages (statistically their divorce rates are somewhat worse) and are sexually responsible (statistically conservative religious beliefs are linked to teen pregnancies. I think it's a "if it feels good, believe it's true" philosophy. Zipperback (talk) 18:05, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
Ah yes, the "argument from Koolaid". --Goatspeed. Fossil evidence of my evolutionCircularREmail2.gifasoningSee what I'm planning 22:41, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Tim Pool

What's the opening bid to get a page up, dedicated to properly and thoroughly dismantling Tim Pool's prattle? I need a neutral third party or team of same to brave the irritating whine of his voice and the open spigot of "fertilizer" flooding out of his YouTube channel. My housemate seems to have surrendered all rational objection to conservative talking points to Mr. Pool, along with all critical analysis of Pool's own critique of the Left. I salute anyone willing to brave this sacrifice and thank you for your time. — Unsigned, by: CuriousBlueThing / talk / contribs

Who is tim pool? ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:50, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
Tim PoolWikipedia's W.svg. NekoDysk 19:33, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Trump government shut down

Whatever Trump says the shutdown will have a maximum timespan (until 'a large number of Republican politicians' start considering the elections and/or Trump's successor is elected).

What are the likely consequences of an extended shutdown if it were to happen? Anna Livia (talk) 19:43, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

On Tuesday evening TV in the US, Trump will try to scare the population into paying for his wall. Preview. Millennium Scallion (talk) 20:25, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
That actual duration would be disastrous with unfix-able consequences. Economy crashing hard, especially in the DC metro area, programs managing essential things like, I don't know, fucking water for crops, would go unmanaged, prisons will eventually go unguarded, leading to prisoners being unfed, unprotected, unmedicated. A good third-to-half of scientific research in the US would go unfunded. Many universities would have to fire staff. Thankfully the border patrol and ICE is on leave and months of no pay would force most of them to stop being evil bastards and get a real job. Not now, but within a year, no more passports. Soon: commercial flying might not be possible(or at least reserved to the small amount managable by redirected airforce and army ATCs. It's gonna be a real dumb next week or so, until the dems decide giving into a big loser baby is the lesser of two evils. Then it'll be real dumb forever, because overton window will be even dumber. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:42, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
And what about the states' "internal" government and their fiscal capabilities? Could they move towards 'devo-max' and variants on the West Lothian Question? Anna Livia (talk) 00:01, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
States are sovereign entities in their own right, they share power with the US government and are relatively autonomous in many aspects, so in theory they shouldn't be harmed that much. In practice, on the other hand, the states get as much as a third of their funding from the federal government, so they will be affected too, it's just a matter of degree, rather than kind, since the rest of the funding states get comes from their own ability to tax their citizens independently of the federal government. Ɖøn Ĵuan Harass 00:31, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

My initial figure #is# the theoretical maximum: and I am 'speaking from unfamiliarity.'

As a longer term implication - would a longer term confrontational shutdown at government central result in states' governments developing more robust measures (so fiscal autonomy devolves). Anna Livia (talk) 13:05, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

States are already becoming more autonomous due to the rise of the Donald-in-Chief. One could ascertain that such a scenario could come about, but only time will tell what the consequences will be long term. Ɖøn Ĵuan Harass 17:03, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
It's a real resiliency against problems built into the design of our constitution, if a state, like Kansas, completely fails, only part of the social structure government provides fails, in their case schools and roads. And if the federal government completely fails(minus military because we're jingoistic idiots who will fund any war any time), you only lose parks, international travel, document processing, and big high-level regulation. I almost wish it wasn't so resilient and we all had to eat the full consequences of dumb choices we make immediately. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:01, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Melting ice caps and the partial cooling of the Pacific ocean- what does this mean for climate change?

This article talks of the bottom of the Pacific ocean cooling- http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/amp25781337/ocean-colder-climate-change-little-ice-age/

This article talks of rapid melting of Antarctic ice- http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2019/01/antarctic-sea-ice-is-astonishingly-low-this-melt-season/

What might be the outcome if both are true? We do know that melting ice caps are completely fact. I am saying if both are happening at once.

I am not jumping to conclusions on the subject. I am curious as to what the outcome will be. I'm in your house. You cannot escape --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 03:22, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

@Rationalzombie94 I honestly don't know since this is somewhat beyond my understanding of Climatology. More to the point how did you and @ get in my house? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 03:27, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
In short, the main concern is global average temperatures, which have been steadily trending upward since the Industrial Revolution. Local areas of cooling are to be expected. Bongolian (talk) 03:42, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
I think I remember pretty basic introduction to a physical system is actually pointed out somewhere here. There it is. The earth isn't a completely closed system, but it is darn near it. The sun is the major external force, and the atmosphere is the catalyst, and the distance and composition of the planet are all major players in how the energy from the sun is absorbed/used in, what can be best described as entropy. Being said, putting an ice cube into a hot cup of coffee is a lot smaller of a system. The ice cube was formed under different circumstances than the water for the coffee was boiled, but I mean, if you were really all about getting that coffee without burning your mouth, you could take a straw and sip at whatever's right next to the cube before it fully melted and settled on a different temperature. But you're mostly getting watered down coffee, bad data about the overall temperature of your coffee. So ice, which we know is a structure salt inhibits, forms with a lower concentration of salt than the water around it that doesn't freeze. Melting ice that formed from salt water around it (during a real ice age, not a little one) is inherently less salty, so when it melts it desalinates the water around it, which makes a larger surface area more prone to freezing, at least at its closest point to the freezing threshold. But it's kind of a death-throe, it doesn't mean there is something within the system that will cool everything out to normal and then STILL EXIST, which is why the ice cube in coffee analogy was so stupid, I'm so stupid, damn it. As the pure-water ice dissipates, it acts more like pure-water. Ice is not colder than salt-water, it just has less salt in it, so it can form the structure of ice. The fact that it is melting in places where it really shouldn't is alarming, even if this has a dissipating cooling effect in places in a relatively short term. Hand of God dropping a new ice cube in the ocean is the only thing that can quickly/effectively cool the entire planet at this point. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 05:15, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
That's not true, there's also megaprojects, like clogging our atmosphere with micro-particulates, or launching mega satellites into orbit. Sure, sure, that will result in crop failures, but it's a small price to pay to prove to those damned liberals that we don't have to cut CO2 emissions. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:34, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
Hahahaha, hand of God, baby! Wrest control, that's what we are built to do, block out the sun if it won't burn itself out! We have fun here, don't let it be said we don't have fun. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:20, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Pointless poll

The Garden of Earthly Delights, 1490, Hieronymus BoschWikipedia's W.svg

We haven’t had a new one in months. I miss it :( (talk) 13:39, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

What sort of curved shape do you prefer then? Anna Livia (talk) 16:31, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
I prefer ass. Ɖøn Ĵuan Harass 02:50, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
As if all ass is contained by the same curve, come on. Big booty Judy and little boop John? You really prefer them both? Flat-ass Cindy and love-seat Larry? Fill-them-jeans like Steve McQueen and hidin'-the-truth Ruth? Actually, I've just riffed myself out of this one, I prefer ass as a reference to a curved shape now... You're a monster. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:39, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Only you are responsible for the mental associations you make, not me. Ɖøn Ĵuan Harass 10:12, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Well, I say. NekoDysk 11:08, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── We can make a new pointless poll asking people if they prefer ass or chest. Just a thought. Ɖøn Ĵuan Harass 11:48, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

We could make a pointless poll on whether swords are more pointy than spears. But seriously, I don't know how to make the poll, I can't find the instructions. NekoDysk 13:09, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Are pricks more pointy than swords? Ɖøn Ĵuan Harass 14:06, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Electromagnetic Field

I got the following words from Quora, The magnetic field from our heart has been measured up to around three feet away and our brain waves which produce much smaller measurable fields are measurable up to 1/10 of an inch from the skull." [1]

So do our brain waves produce electromagnetic fields? What exactly does "brain waves" refer to anyway, a conglomeration of nerve cells? སྤྱན་རས་གཟིགས་ (talk) 18:28, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

That's complicated. First off, since this is RW, let's get a few things out immediately, brain waves are useless for much of anything besides measuring if someone is alive and/or conscious. There's a lot of woo, and most of it is bullshit.
Gross simplificaiton incoming: The term "brain wave" refers to the measurable magnetic fields coming out our skulls. The reason there's a measurable electromagnetic field that comes in "waves" from the brain is because of how neurotransmission works. Brain cells use the chemical energy they have in ATP(gotten the same way every other cell gets it, breaking sugar apart with oxygen, both coming from blood) to pump sodium, potassium, calcium, and magnesium ions across the cell membrane. When they receive an electrical message from one or more neighboring neurons, they, based on certain individual cell attributes(and moderated by neurotransmitter chemicals such as serotonin) that are way more complex than I understand, decide to either fire or stay silent. If they "fire", they dump all their collected ions, creating a large(for a cell) electrical charge on their surface, which is conducted by the cell's axions to neighboring cells. Which then repeat the process based on their own firing conditions.
Certain parts of the brain are "programmed" to regularly discharge in an organized fashion. Those discharges often produce specific "chains" of cell activation across the entire brain. A large quantity of charge moving simultaneously creates an ElectroMagnetic field. That EM field can be detected as appearing and dissipating with normal electrical equipment, and it looks a lot like a wave. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:30, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
Your brain generates and processes information in the form of electrochemical signals. Neurons communicate with each other via molecules called neurotransmitters, but the signals travel inside each neuron is an electrical pulse. Electrical charges have their own electric fields, but a mobile charge also generates a magnetic field. Whether or not such an electromagnetic field can be detected at that kind of a distance, I do not know.
And while we are at it, here is the answer to the original Quora question. Yes. All the time. Light is a class of electromagnetic waves that your eyes can detect. Infrared radiation, also known as heat, is given off as well and can be detected by touching. In general, any object whose absolute temperature is above zero emits electromagnetic radiation of all wavelengths. The distribution of intensity as a function of wavelength depends on the temperature and looks like a bell curve but is tilted leftward. (See Planck's lawWikipedia's W.svg). The wavelength of peak intensity can be calculated as well (by using Wien's displacement lawWikipedia's W.svg). Nerd (talk) 22:53, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
You can get headsets which measure your brain waves in real time, and give you very basic control drones and computer things by concentrating. NekoDysk 11:03, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Gaia Inc.

Gaia Inc (separate from Gaia Health I think) may need a page on RationalWiki, given that it's on Wikipedia (Gaia, Inc.Wikipedia's W.svg). I don't know how big it is, but has been doing some quite heavy advertising pushes recently. (talk) 03:18, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Advertising, yeah, but... it's a subscription channel, meaning you have to ask for it and pay for it before you can watch it. This, to my mind, suggests that the kind of person who might be influenced by it probably has already bought into it's pitch long before they ever heard of it. If you're going to pay 12 bucks for two months of nonsense TV, then you're already the sort of person who will pay 12 bucks for nonsense TV. For now, at least, it's not really that notable... Kencolt (talk) 11:30, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
It never hurts to refute their crap anyways, there's always the potential honest person that can have their brains flushed of nonsense, even if in a cult they tend to be rare. Ɖøn Ĵuan Harass 11:46, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Well, that's a point. Also a point that you can't properly refute anything without evidence. For that, you'd have to watch the channel? I'm not planning to shell out the 12-plus bucks to put myself through it... sorry, not that invested in the local mission. ('Cause I'm cheap.) Kencolt (talk) 12:28, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
I`m only 17 so I can't cough up the money anyhow. Next! Ɖøn Ĵuan Harass 12:36, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Dear Donald Trump, my loyalties are to the country and the American people; not you

Okay, you all know I am a patriotic American and stand up for my country. Knowing that Trump acts like a baby who uses racist scare tactics, he is a disgrace to the United States. All he is doing is holding the country hostage with a government shutdown and wanting to declare national emergency. That crap goes against my patriotic views. To Hell with Trump and the entire Republican party. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 17:36, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

What do you mean by "racist" scare tactics? སྤྱན་རས་གཟིགས་ (talk) 18:16, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Last night's dumb speech included several diatribes about the imminent danger to life and limb posed by immigrants crossing the southern border, which you know, is a fabrication, inciting, and obviously prejudicial in nature. Now I acknowledge if you're the craziest kind of crazy white person, you might say "that's not the same as racist, because there's 10 leaps of incongruous logic you could jump through to construct such false, prejudicial, and inciting statements without racial discrimination being a motivating factor". ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:51, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
I thought you were referring to the Government Shutdown and his threats related to it. I had no idea this was about immigration. སྤྱན་རས་གཟིགས་ (talk) 18:55, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
But the shutdown is attached implicitly to the racism since the whole temper tantrum is giving baby his wall. And his wall is pointless garbage for appeasing the dumbest, most racist people. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:40, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Watched his speech, and it was all basically "Immigrants are coming to kill you". There is still a small hard core of his base that buys into the fearmongering, but it's shrinking. Millennium Scallion (talk) 20:15, 9 January 2019 (UTC)


I watched Trump's address, along with the Democrat's response (and I suspect a lot of users also watched both). Until recently (like, the past few weeks) I considered the Trump Wall to be unnecessary. However, my mind has since changed. There are several points that the Democrats would rather sweep under the carpet.

  • A vast majority of heroin (90%) flows in from the Southern border. (Even I was surprised by this statistic)
  • Law enforcement professionals requested the wall, and they know more about this issue than any of us
  • Tens of billions are spent on dealing with illegal immigration each year, the $5 billion is nothing in comparison
  • Trump outlined several problems with the current Southern border (including drugs and crime by illegal immigrants, e.g the murder of a police officer by an illegal immigrant who crossed the Arizona border). In the Schumer/Pelosi response, Chuck Schumer disgracefully described this a "manufactured crisis"
  • The Democrats have supported border security in past, including good ol’ Chuck and then-Senator Obama in 2006.

In all, I have concluded that this is a 'SchumerShutdown'. The principle reason the Democrats oppose this wall is because Trump wants it. --RWRW (talk) 19:00, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

A lot of heroin does come up throuh Mexico, but just about all of it gets through at the regular points of entry. Very little is brought through the desolate wastelands that are the only areas that don't already have border walls. And most people who are in the country illegally are here because they overstayed their visas, not because they took a dangerous trek through the desert. The fellow who allegedly killed the cop was one of them, and entered by a legit entry point. Trump's wall is an empty gesture meant to rile the white trash rather than to solve any immigration problem. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 19:26, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
So the wall is actually meant to prevent illegal immigrants from dragging themselves + their children through deserts. Isn't Trump great, he got all the racists to support a humanitarian wall. ;) (talk) 19:49, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
What a stupid piece of human garbage you are. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:40, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
What a completely reasonable, thoughtful response. *upside down smiling emoji* (talk) 20:03, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, okay, tell me more about how wanting all gay people to die of AIDS is a foundationally reasonable, intellectual perspective, again. Fuck off, go to conservapedia if you want to spend your whole life rationalizing every dumbass far-right idea and its disasterous consequences. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:43, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Not sure whether this 'argument by bad faith assumption' shtick even meets the definitional criteria for something being an argument, to be honest. (talk) 21:05, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
If you want to take this away from RWRW's shitty concern trolling(we made the dumbfuck concern troll a mod) section, we can talk on your userpage, about how exactly you've shown bad faith directly to me. I'll go do that now. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 21:23, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
RWRW admitted that he was persuaded by stats Trump cited in his speech and instead of saying "Sorry bud, Trump deceived you"(see Smerdis&Pythoncoder) you're going with "Wow what a garbage person you are". It's just a very odd way of dealing with fellow human beings, you know. (talk) 21:33, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
How about instead of stooping to Trump's level with this name-calling, we have a point-by-point rebuttal?
  • Much of the 90% of heroin from the southern border is either smuggled thru legal points of entry or thru tunnels. Neither would be stopped by The Wall. We should spend money on dealing with these problems.
  • Of course there are going to be some law enforcement professionals that support this. There will also be some who oppose it. Selection bias at work.
  • The Wall is not a very efficient way of preventing illegal immigration. Stuff like more border patrol agents is more effective and costs less. The only reason Trump wants a wall is because that was his signature campaign promise, back when he didn't actually have to govern.
  • Native-born citizens commit twice as many crimes as illegal immigrants: [1]
  • Fences are not walls. Schumer & co supported fences in 2006. There are some areas where fences could potentially be effective; they have already been built in these locations. Much of the remaining area is either difficult-to-cross terrain like mountains or rivers or is on private land which the government would have to seize (something which as a self-identified libertarian you would probably oppose). Both of these things result in increased cost, which results in less wall getting built.
Look, if Mexico pays for the wall, then why not have one. But the odds of that happening are zero. Why should taxpayers have to foot the bill for this nonsensical campaign promise? In fact, a spending bill the House passed that funded every agency except Homeland Security (the agency in charge of border security), which would end most of the shutdown was blocked by Senate Republicans. Why? Because then Trump wouldn't be able to hold millions of government employees hostage over this wall. The real "crisis" is Trump's causing this shutdown entirely by himself, causing environmental damage at national parks and putting many government employees at risk of losing their homes, all because of this stupid wall. — pythoncoder  (talk | contribs) 21:31, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Fair points. I'd just like to point out that 4) won't convince anyone to change their opinion on crimes committed by illegal immigrants (also the stats come from a limited study by the Cato Institute, so make of that what you will). (talk) 21:57, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Given that I actually live in one of the boarder states, and given that I actually looked this shit up back in 2016... Yeah, the wall is one massive WOMBAT. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 22:09, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Just checking, but do people misspell it as "boarder" because Trump had a typo like that once? (talk) 22:21, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
I'm typing this on my phone. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 22:26, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Watching the Schumer/Pelosi address, it seems that the Democrats opposition is based on 2 factors: the claim that Mexico would pay for it and the desire not to 'waste' taxpayers money. The first point is valid, but no real reason to oppose. Of course on Trump's part it is a broken promise, but did anyone actually expect him to get Mexico to pay? Trump has discovered what every elected official discovers sooner or later: the realities of power very different than elaborate campaign promises. The second point was not wanting taxpayer money to be wasted. I couldn't help but laugh - when has the left ever cared about wasting taxpayer money?
The real question now is what happens next. As the Joker once said, Congress seems to be an "unstoppable force meeting an immovable object". There's an idea that the budget should be pushed through without border funding, allowing for negotiations to continue. This makes perfect sense, IF the Dems would actually be willing to compromise (like the GOP would be doing). But since Pelosi has ruled this out completely, I wouldn't be surprised if Trump declares a national emergency within days. --RWRW (talk) 12:25, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
Ah, moving the goalposts, classic. Can we move the goalposts again and say that really, it's "border security" that is what Trump wants? That's one of the few compromise paths I see, it involves redefining "wall" away from being explicitly a physical thing, and away from something that is symbolic of Trump into something a little more generic. That's not something I see Trump doing though...
At any rate, rationally, a physical wall is certainly a stupid idea in many places on the border (think Santa Elena Canyon in Big Bend or think trying to take land from Texas landowners  :) ). But we are talking politics, which is never rational. Under more normal political times, more border security probably would have been an option (as it has been before). What I think makes things different this time is Donald Trump's openly racist attitude has hardened feelings on the Democrats. The Democrats also has momentum, coming fresh off of a "blue wave" election. Politically this was probably not the best time for Trump to play hardball on this issue. But here we are. Soundwave106 (talk) 14:05, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
"Law enforcement professionals requested the wall"...Is there a memo? A letter? A research study? I can't find any published data whatsoever to support this claim. Millennium Scallion (talk) 18:06, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
There's Google: [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] (talk) 20:12, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
OK, thanks. For a $5B expenditure I had hoped there would be an authoritative study. What Trump has is not a request, but a collection of group and individual endorsements, the kind that politicians on both sides of issues routinely assemble ("Nurses Say NO on Proposition #!", "Nurses Say YES on 1", etc), including a group of sheriffs that say they believe the New York Times is a fake news outlet. Millennium Scallion (talk) 13:22, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Rules of procedure of the House of Representatives and the Origination Clause of the Constitution give the Speaker of the House of Representatives priority in deciding how monies may be spent by the Federal government. What Trump is attempting may soon be seen as impeachable, even by Republican senators.Ariel31459 (talk) 02:43, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Donald Trump question

In the two years since Trump took office, what has he achieved?

  • Annoyed a lot of people.
  • Significant numbers of his cabinet have departed, variously under the categories of 'Flotsam, jetsam, lagan, and derelict.'
  • Failed to achieve his wall
  • Withdrawn the US from various international organisations
  • Not read anything
  • Given the impression of being linked to outside forces

It is Richard Nixon's birthday - and from what I have read he achieved more, including writing several books. (Not praising him, but a statement of fact.) Anna Livia (talk) 18:59, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Trump has achieved several notable things in his 2 years in office.
  • Great economic gains: 4% growth. Obama tried taking credit for this despite previously saying that 4% growth wasn’t possible
  • Major tax cuts and record low unemployment (including black and Hispanic unemployment)
  • More diplomatic progress with North Korea than any President in 70 years. The Trump-Kim conference last year was a breakthrough, and another one will likely happen later this year.
  • Massive crackdown on human trafficking [8] and violent crime [9].
--RWRW (talk) 19:21, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
+Opportunity zones, FirstStepAct, withdrawing from wars etc. (talk) 21:11, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Plus some questionable Supreme Court picks. — pythoncoder  (talk | contribs) 21:33, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
And don't forget the greatest writing by any president ever. — Unsigned, by: Pythoncoder / talk / contribs

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Trump gave his friends a big tax cut and it cannot be expressed as anything other than a bonanza for people with money. Meanwhile everyone else has seen their real salary stagnate or even decrease. That is a tremendous success if you ask me. Absolutely fabulous deal. He's engaged in trade disruption with all of America's allies effectively isolating the USA as an aggressive trading partner encouraging other economies to trade with one another without pointless economic barriers. He shook Kim Yung Un's hand in Singapore. He then changed the subject and ignored North Korea's continuation with parts of the nuclear program and his threats. A tremendous success that has clearly brought fabulous peace to the world. He's been really really good at dressing down world leaders with some of the funniest insults and hissy-fits. The state of US diplomacy and global influence is just great, great stuff. He managed to get two really amazing people in the supreme court, just terrific good guys, guys anyone would trust their daughter to be alone with. Just fabulous judges. He was a winner at converting political narrative, new ideas, knee jerk reactions, insults, temper-tanrtums... to sporadic incomprehensible messages of 160 characters (280 now I believe). Has any other president been more successful at toning down facts and injecting outrage? He was a star at losing the House of Representatives. He is number one at letting victims of natural disasters learn the skills of fending for themselves and becoming more self-sufficient. No previous president has achieved such close gushing man-crushes amongst other populist like the democratic and fair and close lovers of America like Putin, Kim Yung Un, Mohammad al Saud. He brought heart and soul into the oval office. His most notable achievement is winning the absolute prize for the president who is laughed at and flabberghasts (if not disturbs) 80% of the citizens of the EU, Canada (western world). More than even Bush or Nixon. But I think really the best achievement of all, was taking credit for economic growth which is mostly due to the last three president's policies, change in market trends and specific state's policies. Whats incredible is that the economy has managed to grow despite him limiting it with trade disruption and an enormous loss of stimulus policies due to his tax slaughtering. Who on earth can take better credit for something positive (which they've actually done their best to sabotage) than President T. So many spectacular successes, I wish I could go on and on ShabiDOO 22:52, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

So, @RWRW, were you born into the ruling class or are you a useful idiot? I'm so glad to hear that Ivanka thinks that Daddykins is actually effective in doing something other than grand theft (one of your two links). Your evidence-free bullshit (the North Korea "agreement" that says and does nothing) is borderline trolling: shame on you, fellow moderator! I know, I know, you support rich people saving a shilling even if a few poor people get killed collaterally. Bongolian (talk) 02:39, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
Ha! No, but I think I'd make a great addition to the bourgeoisie. Nope, I support the government not prodding its nose into people's lives unless necessary. --RWRW (talk) 12:28, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
you'd maybe have more credibility if you didnt just spout whatever the party line is the whole time. AMassiveGay (talk) 19:20, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Also, noted that you didn't dispute that you're spouting evidence-free bullshit, @RWRW. Bongolian (talk) 20:24, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

"In the two years since Trump took office, what has he achieved?" You could start from here. Thinker(unlicensed) 19:38, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

@UnlicensedThinker That appears to be a pretty mixed track-record depending on one's political orientation of course, the few genuine good things there (like increasing funds to combat the opioid epidemic here in the States) are far outweighed by the bad. Ɖøn Ĵuan Harass 16:01, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
My opinion concerning the Trump administration is more nuanced than most leftists I believe, I acknowledge he's done a few good things, but my opinion is that the good he's done is far outweighed by the meh and the bad. Ɖøn Ĵuan Harass 16:02, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Do non-white countries have diversity/immigration and do non-humans mix with each other?

I was wondering if theres any counter-examples to the claim that immigration of other races (I know its not a greatly scientific concept, but I mean those who are views by society as different races) are only coming to white countries? For example, can you guys give me some examples of non-white countries (non-European descent majority) that are having a lot of immigration from "non-whites" since the 20th century?

And also, are there any good arguments countering the claim that all other subspecies want to stay with their own kind, but humans are the only ones to significantly mix people who evolved from such diverse backgrounds into a collective?

Do any other species do this especially other primates?

Also is there a good argument that addresses the claim white people deserve a homeland like all people do?

I am theamazingskeptic, but this is not a troll this is a legitimate post. I know some mods may act up and want to remove this like my other post, but I am posting this here because you guys are fellow skeptics and will probably have some pretty good answers to racialism. Please excuse my past bait you absolute fuzzcucks and just treat this legitimately and give me good counters thanks. (talk) 00:01, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

To the second point: I think you've confused the terms subspecies and demes. I'm not a biologist, but homo sapiens doesn't have any subspecies. A population would have to be geographically isolated for a very long time and then present morphological differences from the rest of the species. A deme, however, does not need to show morphological differences, but it can exist as an semi- or fully-isolated population. Demes account for all diversity we see in homo sapiens. To make a subspecies distinction you'd have to provide evidence of homo sapiens with different bone structure or organ structure or something like that.
With that out of the way, to the actual question we go. Beyond the fact that humans mixing with humans isn't covered by your question (humans mixed demes, not subspecies), there even exists cross-species breeding. The mule is a great example. When a donkey and a horse love each other very much, though they are different species and the Donkulets and the Equitagues are at war and their love is illicit, they can make a mule by breeding. The Liger and the Tigon are also good examples. So yeah, mules. Their existence is a good argument against the claim that subspecies want to stay with their own kind. Decidedly not a sock of User:Fareeha_A 00:57, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
This argument relies on the already-shaky concept of races, but yes, non-white countries tend to have diverse populations and contain many people with different nationalities and ethnic groups. China alone has more than 50 recognized ethnic groups. They key fact is just large populations and countries in general tend to be more diverse than smaller ones. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 01:05, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
Possibly relevant lists: net migration rate, immigrant population, ethnic and cultural diversity level. (talk) 01:28, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
@Koidevelopment I need to make this point clear here: "races" =/= sub-species. There are currently no sub-species for Homo Sapiens. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 01:41, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie Yeah, that's what I said. Why do we need to make it clear? Did you not read the first paragraph I wrote? Koidevelopment (talk) 03:20, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
@Koidevelopment Because I'm tired and mistook you for the original poster... I blame crazy people from YouTube, and my lack of success trying to find the ultimate singularity of Woo. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 03:25, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie Ah, no worries. I have been known to impulse buy books 04:02, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie Actually, there is a subspecies of Homo sapiens. It's Homo sapiens sapiensWikipedia's W.svg! That would be us. Our race is a subspecies! Just being technical. Or that's what I thought I read in Wikipedia, but it seems like I have misread something somewhere. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 05:02, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
@LeftyGreenMario Err, no. To make a subspecies distinction you'd need at least two subspecies. For instance, homo sapiens sapiens and homo sapiens fill-in-the-blank. And besides, this was largely a 19th century practice that stemmed with Linnaeus that had declined by the 20th century. There are currently no recognised subspecies of homo sapiens. Koidevelopment (talk) 18:53, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
@Koidevelopment Well what about the now-extinct H. s. idaltu? Ɖøn Ĵuan Harass 15:53, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @Don Juan I had no idea H. s. idaltu existed! Thanks for the cool deep dive! Yes, H. s. idaltu would make H. s. sapiens a subspecies. 锦鲤 () 19:18, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

On the subject of immigration: I know South Africa has seen xenophobic violence over refugees from Zimbabwe. Same thing in Colombia over refugees from Venezuela. And in the Dominican Republic over immigrants from Haiti, to the point where they've coined a term for it: "antihaitianismo". And in Myanmar/Burma, the government claims (on dubious grounds) that the Rohingya people are actually furr'ners from Bangladesh. And for all we hear about refugees from Syria heading to Europe, the majority of them wound up staying in Turkey. Bottom line, it's not just white countries that immigrants and refugees go to (let alone being sent to by shadowy NGOs in the name of "white genocide", as in the fevered imaginations of the far-right); they go to wherever's closest. And they face xenophobia everywhere they go. It's just that the immigrants and refugees who go to the West are the only ones we hear about, because most of us live in the West and consume Western media. KevinR1990 (talk) 02:12, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
Not a Rationalwiki member, but here are some answers:
A) This point have been covered by the other commenters, but here's another example: the Football war between Honduras and Salvador in 1969 has been cause by Salvadorian immigration in Honduras.
B) Human do not have subspecies, as has been covered. And animals mix *a lot* with other subspecies, as long as they have the opportunity. Wolves with dogs, wild cats with cats...
C) There's no "white people". There's no "black people" either. There are cultures. Sometimes (but not always) those cultures can superimpose on some physical characteristics that are in fact, not exclusively present in said group, by maybe more often. There's no homeland for "white people", however there's a homeland for french people.
Racializing stuff is silly, and lead to absurdities, like the Balkans mess (hey, let's ethincally cleanse a people from our homeland, even if it's their homeland too!), or in the US: if the US should be a "white" homeland, where's the homeland for amerindians? Are they legitimate to try to take back "their" lands, by force if necessary, if the US are an "indian" homeland? And where do the blacks go? No african country would want them, because they have a totally different culture. They only good answer is to stop considering people as race first, but as citizens first. (talk) 12:45, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Different species of corvid hang out with each other. Ditto many other kinds of birds - gulls, tits, et al. Multiple species of fish are found in many ecosystems (Not all preying on each other). There are biological reasons why multiple species or subspecies don't do exactly the same thing in the same place - the most fit will outcompete the other - but that pressure doesn't apply to humans. --Annanoon (talk) 10:06, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

With regard to the second question, there is extensive anecdotal video evidence that many species are capable of ostensibly amicable interaction with other species. Here for example.Ariel31459 (talk) 02:28, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Aww! (talk) 04:39, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Fucking yes, you racist weirdo. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:57, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

A thought experiment

Much is made of the fact that all human beings belong to the same species. It is our moral philosophy however that determines how we treat one another, exemplified by such claims as, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all [people] are created equal, that they are endowed by [their nature] with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….” Suppose another species of hominidae did in fact exist. Suppose further that in most aspects its members evinced the common characteristics of people: that they possess similar personality, intelligence and culture one might associate with a civilized people belonging to our own species. Would we not decide to accept them into our society as equals? How could we do otherwise?Ariel31459 (talk) 15:21, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Migrants only come to white countries! And races don't mix!

  • Over 80% of the population of the very white country of the United Arab Emirates are migrants. Many of these migrants come from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and the Philippines. See Demographics of the United Arab Emirates.
  • Over 80% of the population of the very white country of Qatar are migrants. Many of these migrants come from India, Nepal, Bangladesh, the Philippines and Egypt. See Demographics of Qatar.
  • Around 70% of the population of the very white country of Kuwait are migrants. Many of these migrants come from South Asia and from other Arab countries. See Demographics of Kuwait.
  • More than 50% of the population of the very white country of Bahrain are migrants, mostly from South Asia. See Demographics of Bahrain.
  • Over 40% of the population of the very white country of Singapore are migrants. Many of these migrants come from Malaysia, China, India, and Bangladesh. See Demographics of Singapore and the country's 2010 census.
  • About a quarter to a third of the population of the very white country of Jordan are migrants. Many of these migrants are refugees who come from Palestine, Iraq, and Syria. See Demographics of Jordan.
  • About a quarter to half the population of the very white country of Brunei are migrants. See this and this UN report.
  • According to the United Nations Department of Economic and Social Affairs, as of 2015, about a quarter of the population of the very white country of the Maldives and about a third of the very white country of Saudi Arabia are migrants. See this chart.
  • About a quarter to a third of the population of the very white country of Antigua and Barbuda are born overseas, notably in Guyana, Dominica, and Jamaica. See Demographics of Antigua and Barbuda.
  • About a quarter of the very white country of Anguilla are migrants. Many of these migrants have United States, United Kingdom, St Kitts & Nevis, Dominican, Jamaican, or Nigerian citizenship. See Demographics of Anguilla.
  • About a quarter of the population of Israel... Wait, are Jews white? Are they? Yes or no? Which is more convenient now? Should we say that they're white so that we can condemn their "colonial project" (while whitewashing 19th and 20th century European colonialism)? Or should we conspire to agree that they're not, because, well, we're totally not racist, but we just, uh... hate them?

Welp! Clearly, diversity is a globalist codeword for anti-white!

But, do races mix? Nope! It is an empirical fact that the following races do not exist, just to name a few:

Clearly, these fictional ethnicities, many of which have non-existent populations in the millions, have been entirely fabricated by postmodernist liberal SJWs, so that they can use their invented politically-correct jargon to baffle others during their virtue signalling! (talk) 05:03, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Cinemasins losing subs

So, I've been seeing more people complaining about Jeremy & co and I decided to check their account on socialblade and:


Wtf happened on the 5th? Does anyone know? Because whatever it was, was enough for people to start unsubbing him since that date... Tinribmancer (talk) 02:26, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

I don't have an answer for the question but I would guess it's because people are finally realising just how un-funny CinemaSins actually is. Decidedly not a sock of User:Fareeha_A 18:56, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
I've been seeing people complaining about CinemaSins for quite a while now, particularly film journalists and movie geeks, and to be honest, I agree with a lot of the criticisms; I don't think I've watched their videos regularly since around mid-2017. Their main argument is that CinemaSins mistakes nitpicking for actual analysis, and hides behind the "satire" label in order to get away with it, like a non-political version of any number of edgelords ("we're not really obnoxious nerds who obsess over everything that so much as resembles a plot hole even if it's actually not when you look at the bigger picture, we're parodying those sorts of assholes!"). Their concern is that, for many people whose first exposure to movie analysis comes through CinemaSins, they will think that that's what being a critic is supposed to be, causing them to either embrace those attitudes or write off all film criticism and analysis in general. More broadly, I've also seen some describe CinemaSins as reflective of bigger problems with internet film criticism in general, feeling that it just marks the next evolution of the "angry critic" shows (The Nostalgia Critic, The Angry Video Game Nerd, Zero Punctuation, and their many ripoffs) that first started proliferating in the 2000s; CinemaSins took that style and made it palatable for the mainstream by cutting back on the F-bombs and the vulgar humor. Dunno what caused the recent drop in particular, though, as I haven't seen any drama connected to CinemaSins or its creators. KevinR1990 (talk) 01:17, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Good, CinemaSins low quality garbage that seems to exist solely to nitpick about every trivial detail. I've actually tried to use them for info a few times and found their reviews to be worse than the product they were trying to criticize. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 01:46, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
The nitpicking in of itself is fine. The real problem is that they take scenes out of context and then comment on them, and they make common careless errors like misspelling and miscounting. They are trend surfers, and their history has always been trying to capitalize on trends. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 05:31, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
I don't get why some people get so angry about CinemaSins. If it makes you laugh, good for you. If it doesn't, then don't watch it. He's a jackass (his own words) making comments about movies, don't take it as a deep intellectual analysis. Thinker(unlicensed) 18:14, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
One of the few things far left commentators on the internet convinced me of was to never watch anything they publish ever again. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:49, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Appeal to nature

Perhaps we could make the appeal to nature page a cover story? Does anyone think it's ready or does anyone want to add anything? I've done two complete passes through it myself. The WP article on this topic is rather limited. Bongolian (talk) 07:31, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

It's passed neither silver nor gold review. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:57, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
It passes all the criteria to be silver as far as I can tell, so I've updated the talk page rating to reflect that. Anyone disagree with that? Bongolian (talk) 20:02, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, seems okay as silver, only cover criteria not met is a reasonable discussion on the talk page, which I guess we're starting now? ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:06, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
OK, I've started the discussion on the talk page. Bongolian (talk) 05:23, 11 January 2019 (UTC)



I am sure there is a Hellfire and Brimstone 'fandom equivalent' for you to get involved in. And there are better fetishes than barbecues. Anna Livia (talk) 11:36, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

After-School Special President

I was just reading the news, and there's a butterfly sanctuary that will have to be bulldozed if the wall is built. Jesus. This sounds like the plot to some crappy after-school special, and the wall will be stopped by some plucky misfits. I should be working on my Screenplay (talk) 15:22, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

I have two responses. They contradict.
The first was that the long migrations of monarch butterflies cannot be sustained without large areas with wildflowers along their traditional migration routes, especially the northerly route where they have to stop and reproduce for 3 generations to complete it. This would doom the entire US (and the Americas more broadly) to losing one of its most elegant and beautiful insects. It's utterly unacceptable.
The second is that the guy who wrote that article voted for trump, and there was never any excuse for voting for trump, and he deserves to lose everything he's ever cared about given the caprice he showed for basically everyone he deemed unworthy. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:56, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
It will end with the protagonist changing from a conservative immigrant hating rich kid falling for the plain looking but kind girl at the Saturday dance at the rec-centre to raise money towards butterfly sanctuary awareness and at the last minute convinces his daddy to use his connections to put it to an end. Then at the end the plain looking girl goes to powder her nose and comes out super foxy gorgeous after shifting her dress and making a couple small changes to her hair and make up. The protagonist has clearly changed and has become a better person and now there is awareness of the dangers of wall talk. Roll credits with bad 80s music. ShabiDOO 20:33, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
it will air on a mid week afternoon on channel 5 AMassiveGay (talk) 20:39, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
Don't forget the old indian who tells him about how nature is precious and throws in a "every part of the buffalo," despite being in Texas. They also probably die at the end. 4gnomesinatrenchcoat (talk) 13:31, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

I thought I knew annoying loading screens

Lots of video games have loading screens where you'd prefer them not to be, like in smash, going to and from the character select screen from other menus takes a loading screen.

But video games ain't got nothing on online corporate training with loading screens for changing your answer on a multiple choice question. Not just a standard html request-response for clicking a link or anything so tame, a genuine, 10-20 second loading screen. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:33, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

This appears to be a common practice and I've noticed this a lot. This is another example of content developers and software engineers failing to give a shit about their end users. Lots of the online corporate training I'm subjected to still uses shockwave flash, as well, which is extremely annoying. Cosmikdebris (talk) 17:49, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
pffft you folk dont know you are born. i remember when all this was fields and it took 15 mins to laod a game on my spectrum, with no gaurantee it wouldnt crash at the end. AMassiveGay (talk) 19:03, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
I don't know how young you think I am, but I'm not so young I don't know what a ZX spectrum is. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:08, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
ive no idea, ijust sounding off. i also remember when multiplayer went being in same room as everyone, and some someone would be stuck with having to use keyboard controls. AMassiveGay (talk) 19:13, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
Online multiplayer has made us all more isolated and sad. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:23, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

The loading screen in Smash is there for a reason, though,I think they preload quite a bit of things including characters and their alts as well as the stages..iirc preloading stuff was a reason Smash Ultimate decided to have players pick the stage first before the characters, an unconventional order of selecting stuff in fighting video games. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 06:19, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

So THIS pathetic piece of shit is supposed to keep immigrants out?!


Steel that can be sawed through will be the base of this racist monstrosity. I officially take back everything I said about illegal immigration. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 18:29, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Having any sort of utility was never a goal. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:11, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
Looking at the bar, it seems to me that recently many of RW users are going mad about this wall thing. Pull yourself together guys! At least, pull your logic together:
"I officially take back everything I said about illegal immigration." It doesn't make sense to take back everything your said about illegal immigration because some steel can be sawed through. Well, unless everything your said about illegal immigration was that steel can't sawed through (which wouldn't make sense either). Thinker(unlicensed) 19:34, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
I know that 5 billion dollars this day sounds like pocket change but its really really really a lot of money. And America has an enormous population of homeless, destitute disabled, marginalized veterans, uninsured sick people, bad infrastructure, inadequate public transportation, underfunded education...all at a level that is sky high compared with other developed countries. 5 billion dollars could help seriously address even just one of these problems. If the wall served any reasonable constructive purpose, okay. But it doesn't, its political opportunism. Which is obscene. The outrage is very understandable. 5 billion dollars here, right? ShabiDOO 20:44, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

What good would a wall do if it can easily broken? We would waste $5 billion. We could use the money to repair useful infrastructure. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 23:12, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Would it not be more effective to spend the money on developing Latin America enough for the migrants to wish to stay there (apart from gap year students and 'follow the harvest' type groups)? Anna Livia (talk) 23:48, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Anything would be better than the crap wall. Why not use tax dollars to better the country. Helping the homeless would be nice. Distribute vaccines to low income people would be better. Fixing roads would be better. How about doing things like that. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 00:08, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Great point, @Rationalzombie94! Here is something I have not seen discussed enough. The U.S. government should criminalize the hiring of illegal immigrants. Employers on U.S. soil must verify (electronically) that their recruits are either U.S. citizens, permanent residents, or other legal alien residents authorized to work. Employers hiring undocumented migrants should face heavy jail time. This would eliminate the incentive for people to illegally immigrate to the U.S. and would cut down illegal immigration more effectively than any border wall.
@Anna Livia No. Foreigners aren't entitled to American tax money. Demanding that another country invest in yours so that your people stop coming over there illegally sounds a lot like extortion. As Zombie and Shabidoo suggested, that money is much better spent on things that would advance the general welfare of the American people.
I did not mention tax money - and if companies set up local factories etc, and eg microfunding is provided local jobs will be created (and some of the teaching, medical and other professionals/technical persons will find opportunities as a result). Anna Livia (talk) 15:32, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
@Anna Livia But you did suggest a way to better spend that money. Since, we are talking about U.S. government spending, that was a natural assumption. Nerd (talk) 16:29, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
@Shabidoo Interesting point in American infrastructure there. How 'bad' is bad? Compared to whom? While the American Association of Civil Engineers gave U.S. infrastructure an overall grade of D+, according to a statistical analysis by the World Economic Forum, U.S. infrastructure is within the top 15 or so, and improving. Nerd (talk) 03:17, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Infrastructure compared with GDP and population. The US should never ever have to be in 14th place (depending on the year of pub). It should be 1st and lightyears ahead of number 2 with its enormous economy, huge wealth, western freedom and institutions, fast changing society. its a total embarassment that Canada, with a fraction of the US population, economy and budget...would be doing better than the U.S.. Potholes, dangerous bridges, barely existing high speed rail, public buildings, low environmental regulation on transportation etc. In any case, infrastructure is actually the least important of the problems I mentioned. It is in homelessness that American politics is a disgrace. It is horrendous that families live in the street when that can easily be avoided. That and many extremely dangerous inner cities, millions of uninsured people, dismal support for the disabled and dangerous underfunded education in many states. The disparity between these services in Vermont or Mass. where things aren't too too bad with that of say, Oklahoma or Mississsippi where many of the badly off are on their own...is shocking. 5 billion won't go very far in infrastructure, but it would bring big changes on homelessness or on the uninsured or on homeless families. People dying who could easily have been insured is a much bigger national emergency than an ineffective pointless wall. ShabiDOO 09:50, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Actually, @Shabidoo, having looked at the global competitiveness indices for a few years, Canada has never ranked that high. With regards to infrastructure, she is 16th in the 2017-2018 period, while her southern neighbor is now in 9th place, displacing Germany and the United Kingdom. This is why I said U.S. infrastructure is improving relative to other countries.
As for high-speed rail, one should always keep in mind that it is appropriate only for highly populated cities located not too far apart (about 4 hours). Two key factors needed for high-speed rail to be feasible are (1) population density and (2) wealth. The U.S. certainly has wealth, a lot of it, but not always the density. This is why high-speed rail exists in relative few places in the U.S. at present, namely, in the Northeast Corridor, and in Florida, with more under construction in California and Texas. Nerd (talk) 16:29, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
im often surprised at how much divergence there is between states in the us. not so much economy wise but with laws. i realise the us is a vast place but it seem bizarre to me when some fundamental rights could be in effect in some parts of the country but not in others. its comparable to the eu, but there no one is pretending that the independent countries it comprises of are all part of the same country the way us states are. i can understand that some things are best left for a locality to decide, but there seems to be much left to state to decide (lgbt rights, drug and gun laws, healthcare from the top of my head) where some uniformity should be expected. when people say they are patriotic, what takes precedent - state or country patriotism? AMassiveGay (talk) 13:03, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
@AMassiveGay Good points! Nerd (talk) 16:29, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Ehh, the last report put Canada a few spots ahead of the USA. First, I don't think "improving relative to other countries" is as relevant to "how good it could and ought to be considering the US's wealth, budget and world dominance/leadership/standing in so many areas. There are countries which are pretty comparable to the US in either size, population or opportunity, with much less money and resources and have better infrastructure.
As for high-speed rail, the North East corridor of the US is very dense and desparately need of real high speed rail (it is slow and pathetic with most of the path not having dedicated lanes which are needed for real high speed). The Madrid-Zaragoza-Barcelona-Girona corridor serves two metros (Madrid/Barcelona) with 9 million between them and three cities (with about 3 million) serving about 12 million and the trains reach 300 km per hour and averages 280kph). In some places you just see streak lines out the window especially through short mountain passages. The average speed on the accela is less than half that of Spains at 135kpm. That is slow. You might as well fly from Boston to Washington. An Spain's economy has been behind that of the US for a long time. The Washington-NY-Boston serves one megopolis (NY is about 20 mil), 3 metropoli (13 mil) and several cities (5 mil). Thats about 38 million. More than three times the population than the Spanish corridor serving some of the richest cities in the world and connecting the biggest financial centre on Earth with the most powerful national capital on Earth and tons in between. Add to that a power house economy. There are engineering challenges in both Spain and the US corridors. Spain had to blast through tons of mountains and appropriate a fair bit of land. The US will have to build more dedicated tracks which is difficult and will include long tunnels and appropriate a lot of land. I could say the same for comparable high speed rails in France and even Germany. No more excuses, get it done, do it. ShabiDOO 20:01, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean by the last report, @Shabidoo. I don't remember ever seeing Canada in the top 10.
When speaking about high-speed rail, average speed is way more important than record speed or maximum operational speed, because that's the number you need to calculate how much time it takes to get from point A to point B. Concerning the Northeast Corridor, there are plans for infrastructure upgrades and new trains, the Avelia Liberty from Alstom, expected to enter service in the 2020s. Check out Amtrak for more details. I have been spending time updating it.
"No more excuses, get it done, do it." That's the spirit! Nerd (talk) 21:01, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Anyone wishing to try - get naming rights for 'several obscure species needing protection' (especially 'very cute' ones) in the localities of the wall and name them (at least temporarily) X y (the)donaldus/trumpus etc. Anna Livia (talk) 15:32, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

considering how keen trump is to remove protections of the environment for other causes, you'd need nothing short than a colony of bald eagles to prevent bulldozers rolling over anything endangered. AMassiveGay (talk) 16:21, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Golden goose donaldtrumpus?
One of these?
Or an offer to build 'most bigly, most beautiful (etc etc) version of the Eden Project? Anna Livia (talk) 16:46, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Negative Effects of Meditation

I wonder why people don't hear about the negatives of meditation. I read that some people suffer psychosis, disconnection from reality and others, anxiety, depression, and in some cases impaired mental ability. I know meditation didn't help me out in any way, in fact I can say that my life was better off without it.Machina (talk) 23:28, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

[1] [2] [3] སྤྱན་རས་གཟིགས་ (talk) 23:33, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
Detachment sounds like a bad thing to be honest. I never truly recovered from that aspect of meditation. — Unsigned, by: Machina / talk / contribs

Climate Change and suicide.

I’ve seen some people contemplate suicide because of climate change.


Spacehillbilly (talk) 00:30, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Bad idea. Climate change is always bad, but it wouldn't make Earth unliveable and I think the worst of the worst effects are yet to happen or even be successfully predicted. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 07:18, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Not to mention that you'd be handing over the planet to the polluters & exploiters on a silver plate. Don't give them that satisfaction, folks! (talk) 07:31, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
If everybody commits suicide there will be no climate change. At least, no anthropogenic climate change. --Annanoon (talk) 10:39, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Climate change is now inevitable. So, don't bother. Take a deep breath. Go for a walk. Stop believing everything is going to hell in a hand basket. It's bad for your blood pressure. You can still buy green bananas. Ariel31459 (talk) 16:40, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
"Thoughts?" It's idiotic. Thinker(unlicensed) 17:50, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Joshua Tree National Park getting vandalized during shutdown

This is the most depressing thing I have the misfortune to know about. All of this damage sustained over, what, a fucking wall!? These vandals need to get launched face first into a cactus. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 07:57, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

So Trump needs to build a wall of cactuses to protect our National Parks? ;) (talk) 08:03, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Just in case there was any confusion: a Joshua treeWikipedia's W.svg is a yucca, not a cactus. Bongolian (talk) 20:55, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

US public views on immigration

i'm staying pretty quiet on this wall business. as a britisher, i do not feel know enough about the pervading culture surrounding immigration to be able to have anything to add short of regurgitating stuff ive seen in the news. i feel like ive got a pretty good handle on reasons folk dislike immigration in the uk, but none on reasons in the us and i'm not convinced there are too many similarities - even our racism seems different in nature. all i can really see is people associate immigrants with crime. is this it or is there more too it? competition for jobs and services? feeling like a foreigner in their own country? is it all immigrants or just illegal ones? what about refugees? how important is the country of origin? what kind of people have a negative view and what kind have a more positive? i'm not so interest in talking points from media or politicians stirring things up, more about what you hear people say are their issues. A more nuanced picture than flat out racism basically. Can anyone help? if thats asking too much maybe someone can direct me to a website. thanks AMassiveGay (talk) 12:38, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

@AMassiveGay Here's how I understand it: In the case of the whole wall thing It's basically a bunch of white people hating on a group that is culturally similar, except, well... They aren't white. Meanwhile, the former group WILL NOT SHUT THE EVERLOVING FUCK UP about how great they think the U.S. is, blissfully unaware that such praise might just be the reason other people (such as the the aforementioned Mexicans and Latinos) keep trying to move here. Or, in short, Xenophobia + a complete lack of self awareness + reinforcement via media and pundits = morons who want a stupidass wall that will do absolutely nothing if it's built. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 13:22, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
thanks for the info. i think however, even as removed from things as i am, that i get that impression of the wall. i think what i am asking though is the rationale for the xenophobia - how does does an ardent supporter of the wall justify it to themselves or others? or those proud of tghe greatness of the us - what do they fear immigration will do to that or is just said like a mantra without any thought? i dont mean any that these will be real fears, just their fears, real or imagined.
in the uk, fear/hatred of immigration - at least in the current climate - stems from policies of austerity and beyond, services, housing, healthcare, schools being deliberately underfunded. though not the cause, immigration becomes more visible when you feel you might be in competition for those services, where it becomes easy to stoke fears and underlying racism of those unable to find housing in an area they lived their whole life while that family don the street with accents got a house. its difficult to say that its government policy to why there are no school places when some voices are shrieking about johnny foreigner jumping the queue. its easy to stoke fear in an old granny whos family moved to different area, and the small influx of immigrants to her village seems like an invading horde and the only people talking to her are screaming about pakistani rape gangs. i dont believe these are necessarily issues in the us. i dont know enough detail to say.
i ask because laying it all on racism - even if its a big factor - doesnt really cut it for me. calling people racist doesnt win people over to your side, it just entrenches them. its what we did during brexit and still doing now - we label folk who voted brexit as racist, and the only people who are saying they are not are actual racists. in fact we could do nothing else during brexit but declare them racists. the remain camp headed by architects of austerity could hardly counteract years of eurosceptism in the press and an upsurge in anti immigrant hysteria when it would involve reminding people of the causes of discontent is tory own policies, the remain camps own fault, while all in the brexit camp, similarly involved in austerity, just have to point at foreigners and tell lies about how great it will be without the eu.
so with the us and its wall - what issues are immigrants scapegoated with? what can you use to convince them of your cause that isnt accusations of racism or questioning their intelligence? that cant be all there is to it, can it? AMassiveGay (talk) 14:22, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Howdy folks! Check out these poll results. Nerd (talk) 16:33, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

@AMassiveGay made some good points here, @GrammarCommie. It is too simplistic to label people who oppose (illegal) immigration as racists and xenophobes. Remember the law of supply. Higher supply of labor means lower wages. This explains why people think that illegal immigrants take jobs most Americans don't want. See my suggestion above for how to reduce illegal immigration. Nerd (talk) 16:37, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
thanks for that. now just got to factor in a poor grasp of stats and i'm fully clued up :s im probably reading this wrong, but on the whole peoples views of immigration has slightly improved?
is there a difference between illegal and undocumented? would the stats change in anyway you swapped out one for the other? i can imagine people assume alot about immigration if they are not directly effected,and if its framed as 'illegal' then folk are likely to be against anything termed 'illegal' - its never a good thing. but when pressed on why its bad they fall back on crime and jobs. AMassiveGay (talk) 18:28, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
As far as I know, the terms 'illegal' and 'undocumented' are equivalent in the context of immigration, though the latter is less negative. It is important to note that how the question is phrased can affect the answer. That's just a fact one learns from statistics.
What I learned is that Americans generally support legal immigration and oppose illegal immigration. Most support a pathway to citizenship for illegal migrants already in the country and want non-US citizens to prove their legal status before getting hired. A majority thinks it is important or essential for migrants to be fluent in English. About equal numbers of people support prioritizing high-skilled immigrants vs. family reunion immigrants. An overwhelming majority agree that illegal immigration is a serious problem. Nerd (talk) 18:37, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
with reducing illegal immigration (im answering here rather than above - no clear point to interject) - as i understand it some industries cannot function without illegal/undocumented immigrants and that most illegals are as a result of expired visas. is the problem less 'illegal' immigration and more that there are problems with the visa process removing the legality of workers that are necessary to the economy? (i know nothing of the processes involved, just thinking out loud) if companies are fined for employing people that are necessary to a particular industry, who does these jobs if legit immigrants and citizens are not doing them? and whats the incentives for the status quo? if some system is in place for those whose visas have expired to stay in country legitimately, would they just find better paid work else where? seems like we've been discussing these kinds of workers for years but cheap fruit seems to trump decent pay and conditions for a solution to appear. at least with a wall, its ineffectiveness would be desirable while claiming you solved a problem that everyone wants to exist. if only it the message it sent wasnt so fucking awful.
you could just do what we brits do with unemployment figures - redefine the terms until the numbers look acceptable AMassiveGay (talk) 18:57, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
@AMassiveGay Careful! Playing around with numbers just to make them "look acceptable" doesn't sound to honest.
From what I understand, that is essentially why some business interests do not want a long-term solution to this national problem, even though, as I mentioned above, most Americans acknowledge that it is a serious problem and agreed on the most obvious solution. As for prices, yes, they will rise, but unemployment will fall and, in any case, the march of automation continues. Nerd (talk) 01:45, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

2019 US government shutdown

Given the several posts in the Saloon Bar on the topic - should this have its own article? Anna Livia (talk) 16:48, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Eh, it could, but this may be something that gets lost in the moment, depending on if it goes for another 2 weeks or not, and whether they patch up the mess left behind with back-pay and the like. It's sure a story of the moment because of the uncertainty it creates, but whether anyone will care more than a standard fact-check(wikipedia's job, not ours) in 2 years is up in the air. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:52, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
"should this have its own article?" It's an interesting topic but I don't think is suited for RW. What's to debunk about a government shutdown? Thinker(unlicensed) 17:55, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
We could debunk everything Trump said about why it happened. NekoDysk 19:36, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps 'US government shutdowns in general' - the other place has coverage at [10], [11] and [12]. And then there is [13] and http://conspiracydailyupdate.com/category/geopolitics/us/us-government-shutdown-sept-trump/].
There are also 'immigration kneejerk reaction crisis', 'one more brick in the wall' and suchlike, and 'possible long term implications of the shutdown' etc.
Mainly to stop cluttering the Saloon Bar and its archives. Anna Livia (talk) 19:52, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Mention it in the Great Wall of America article. Avida Dollarsher again 20:24, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Overlapping but distinct - and all the actual and theoretical consequences (what will become of the workers who decide to go for enlightened self interest and seek work elsewhere etc, much mocking of the systems... and 'absent H&S persons and engineers' result in the lights being switched off).
How soon before the conspiracy theories begin - 'hordes of them furriners invading the country'/'them there computers (who do not need to be paid) will take over/turn you into number-controlled zombies (see dystopian fiction for what happens next). Anna Livia (talk) 00:04, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
Even odds that some stupid chan shit head will invent a right wing fantasy called "Wallgate" that says that the democrats are working to foil the wall because they want to keep the flow of "pizzas" for their clinton-esque cannibalistic rituals open. Cosmikdebris (talk) 01:46, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
Well...yah. You've captured the low hanging fruit. nobs piss in my ear 02:03, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
Seen some crazy threads about that on Twitter. Search for "adrenochrome" and you'll find plenty. Pretty sure Torchwood: Children of Earth was based on this sorta stuff. (talk) 02:05, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
It's like everything with the name no one mentions: everybody knows it, but none dare speak it. nobs piss in my ear 02:49, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

No death but just the passing of form

A line I often hear when it comes to spirituality. My attempt to make sense of it is that they think of everything as "one" or made of the same thing. I picture it like the universe is made of clay and that what looks like anything made of this "clay" as dying is really just the form that is passing away. On some level I guess it's true since energy can't be destroyed and the molecules and bonds of the body break down, dissipate and interact with others. But I can't shake the feeling like there is some gaping hole in ppithat, but I can't put my finger on it.

My thoughts are that it's just another way to make death seem less scary.Machina (talk) 23:50, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Seems like an accurate-ish description of death. Your being still dissipates though, so leaves plenty of room to be afraid of death in my opinion. (talk) 00:28, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
That which is flesh is flesh. That which is spirit is spirit. Seems pretty straightforward and rational. nobs piss in my ear 01:42, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
Either there is an afterlife, or else there is none. If there is, I assume that there is also a God and that he runs the place, and that my feeble attempts to worship him have not been entirely in vain. If there is none, there is only oblivion, of the sort where you soundly slept through world wars and great plagues. Merely ceasing to be is deliverance enough for me; the rest is a lagniappe. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 03:58, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
It is something like that. Let's leave discussion of the negative side of the leger out for now.
To have "eternal life," starts now, not at the moment of passing from the carcus ("that which is flesh is flesh. That which is spirit is spirit." Don't confuse the two - they live by different rules and standards. "The flesh wars against the spirit," and "to be carnally minded is death." To understand, you have to put off the carnal mind).nobs piss in my ear 05:16, 12 January 2019 (UTC)